1. Patricia Martin: What got you interested in the topic of Dark Religion?

Vlado Šolc: I grew up in what we would refer to as “communism.” I was young and naïve and believed that truth was something so obvious that it was virtually impossible to avoid. There was a consensus among — I believe — most of us that it was a game of the powerful, who pretended the King had beautiful clothes on. But when I moved to the U.S., I realized that this phenomenon — the phenomenon of dark religion — permeates the whole society and does not spare even the highest levels of politics. During my studies at the institute, I connected Jung’s opus with what I saw around me and within me. I also had a profound dream — the "door in the cave" dream.

2. Patricia Martin: What signaled to you that the collective was ready for a book that explores this topic?

Vlado Šolc: Ready or not, here we come. Of course, many writers have already taken up the topic of fundamentalism. Marty and Appleby explored it deeply in their comprehensive Fundamentalism Project (1991), Karen Armstrong (2001), Chris Hedges (American Fascists, 2008). Jung himself wrote about it — offering one of the most profound psychological perspectives on the topic. Jungians such as Lionel Corbett and Roderick Main have continued the discussion. I believe our contribution lies in bringing it home — pointing out that we can all be fundamentalists to a greater or lesser degree. What we call “dark religion” is a stage of individuation. It’s about reconciling symbolic reality with what we might call consensual reality. There is a thin thread between them — and maybe, as Jung said, that thread is what the world is hanging on.

3. Patricia Martin: Tell us how the book defines fundamentalism.

Vlado Šolc: We aim to move away from the purely historical and sociological definitions of fundamentalism. Instead, we coined the term “dark religion” to describe inadequate or unhealthy expressions of religion. You could also call it “shadow religion.” It’s when ego-consciousness creates defensive positions. The numinous energies of the Self are broken into many parts, operating unconsciously and serving ego-driven goals. Phenomenologically, three factors are involved: inflation, the imago Dei, and the ego. Dark religion is when the ego hides behind God — but in truth, it’s all just a selfish, self-serving game.

4. Patricia Martin: You write about the reality of evil. Why is it important for individuals and the collective to come to grips with the shadow side of religion?

Vlado Šolc: Dark religion is a defense against the full religious experience. Believing in a great God does not make people great. It is ultimately one’s actions that speak for the religion they claim. The shadow always harms and always creates consequences. George and I write about patients who come to therapy to heal from the shadow that was projected onto them by their God-loving parents. The shadow of dark religion is particularly painful because it stands in opposition to the God who is supposed to be the greatest.

5. Patricia Martin: Your book also looks at the positive force that religion can be in a person’s life. Given that Carl Jung was raised in a Christian home, and in Memories, Dreams, Reflections writes about his upbringing as the son of a Protestant pastor — how would you describe Jung’s stance on the value of religion to the psyche?

Vlado Šolc: Jung believed that religions are the psychotherapeutic systems of humankind. Religion, as a process of consciousness, can contain affect and turn into a beautiful experience — but as an unconscious energy, it can be abused in the most horrific ways. We can understand religion as a response to archetypal powers that are universal. It is opus contra naturam — a natural, instinctive response — but as it becomes more conscious, we begin to speak of spirituality.

6. Patricia Martin: I want to raise the question of goodness. There is a common thread that runs through organized religion about doing good, being a good person, being a child of God, and the divine benevolence bestowed upon those who practice their faith. How does dark religion frame the idea of goodness? What happens when the faithful realize that they’ve invested their faith in something that also does harm? Does it give license to followers to do the same — or does it cause a psychological breach?

Vlado Šolc: Goodness is a philosophical concept — like a perfect circle, it does not actually exist in reality. It’s an ideal to strive for, but it’s always a process. There’s always a shadow hidden even in the best intentions, because the shadow is the twin brother of ideals. We see children of “perfect” parents in our offices. Individuation is about recovering the self from the illusion of a false self. The imago Dei of a perfect God puts immense pressure on those who genuinely seek.

7. Patricia Martin: Last Easter, I was very conscious of the power of ritual and symbols during Lent — from the ashes on my forehead to the sacrament of reconciliation to the stations of the cross. The Catholic Church, for all of its epic corruption, understood the human yearning for ritual and symbols — right down to the sensory signals of incense and beeswax candles. Personally, I get a lot out of that. What’s the benefit of participating in dark religion? How much of the recruitment and participation is driven by a need for identity among followers?

Vlado Šolc: To be clear, religion is only “dark” when the ego hides behind it. Symbols can be wells of life and can offer numinous, transformative energies. If those energies are used by the ego for its own purposes, they become dark. If they serve the process of enlarging consciousness, they become light. The Catholic Church grew out of the same fertile ground as every other religion. We don’t want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

8. Patricia Martin: When it comes to religious institutions these days, the corruption of mission and misuse of power are very much in the news. Do religious institutions corrupt themselves first and then become the source of cultural corruption — or is corruption the milieu, and religion is just in the mix?

Vlado Šolc: The need for control goes hand in hand with the need for growth. There is a will to power, but also a religious function of the psyche. Dark and light, rational and irrational — they’re different sides of the same coin. The paradoxical nature of both nature and the psyche is present in religion; religion is an expression of the psyche. Corruption has always existed, but religion is a particularly convenient object to hide behind — because it’s attractive and promises something magnificent. Just like money, power, or sex, religion touches a deep unconscious yearning — and can also become a trap.

9. Patricia Martin: Taking a look at how the tenets of dark religion spread — religious cults, supremacist organizations, and fundamentalist spiritual leaders have taken to the internet to spread their message. It strikes me that we are in a cultural moment when religion is organized and expressed virtually. How will that alter the experience of spirituality? What about the numinous in that realm?

Vlado Šolc: Take, for example, conspiracy theories. It is so easy to spread them. They are growing in countless variations. Anonymity, combined with lies, helps them spread on the internet like fungus.

Bibliography:

Appleby, R. S., & Marty, M. E. (Eds.). (1991). The Fundamentalism Project (Vol. 1–5). University of Chicago Press.

Armstrong, K. (2001). The battle for God: A history of fundamentalism. Ballantine Books.

Corbett, L. (1996). The religious function of the psyche. Routledge.

Hedges, C. (2008). American fascists: The Christian right and the war on America. Free Press.

Jung, C. G. (1961). Memories, dreams, reflections (A. Jaffé, Ed.; R. & C. Winston, Trans.). Vintage Books.

Main, R. (2004). Revelation and transformation: Jungian depth psychology and religious experience. Routledge.

Šolc, V., & Didier, G. J. (2018). Dark religion: Fundamentalism from the perspective of Jungian psychology. Chiron Publications.